uglyknuckles
Singing Slasher
Rebel Hitman
"You can't kill what won't die, they try but the strong survive." --Freddy C from Madball
Posts: 993
|
Post by uglyknuckles on Jul 8, 2008 22:59:09 GMT -5
Considering that I've been listening to the Cro-Mags "Age of Quarrel" (their only album as far as I'm concerned) for just under twenty years, and find it just as relevant today as I did back then (how many records from any band in any genre hold up for twenty years? And still have you floorpunching and inspired when you're past 30? Anyway, considering that.... yes[/i], Jai, I am aware of the Cro-Mags and specifically frontman John Joseph and bassist Harley Flannigan's Krishna connection. To say that "The Age of Quarrel" has had a huge impact and influence on my life would be just about right. I used to have it in my walkman and listen to it on the way to church when I still had to go for family reasons. The lyrics damn sure made more sense to me than the bullshit I heard after I actually arrived at church. For me it’s one of those life changing records, one of the few from which you get far more than mere entertainment. It’s one of the records that, when I first discovered it, and when I come back to it now, I pretty much listen to nothing else for a few weeks until it’s fully absorbed and worked out in my system. I think I listened to it for about 6 months when I first got it when I was 13 or 14 years old. I always thought John Joseph, or “Bloodclot” as he was credited back in the day, was a bad ass motherfucker. His unique hardcore vocals and tough lyrics all the way down to his devotion to shit like liftin’ weights and martial arts. I identified with him. I still think it is the epitome of righteous cool to be that real and capable of writing songs that were about far more than simply being a bad motherfucker on the streets of NYC. There was a message in the music and lyrics, and it was and is overwhelmingly a positive one. He is a gifted street poet and a very intellectually articulate man, though he is as hard as a fucking rock. So, when I first heard that he’d published an autobiography, I was all over that motherfucker like a rash. I was on it like a Louis Vuitton bra be all on Salma Hayek’s titties. I went online and found the book and bought it within 10 minutes -literally- of learning that it existed. I threw other shit down and went and ordered this motherfucker! The Evolution of a Cro-Magnon by John Joseph. Now, I’ve had it for over a month. It’s 430 pages. Usually that would be two days reading. But, other than the blurbs on the back (from Adam Yauch of the Beastie Boys, film makers Morgan Spurlock and Patty Jenkins of Super Size Me and Monster respectively, as well as Moby and others) , I’ve only read part of one page. Because the dedication page threw me for a loop. This motherfucker is STILL into that Krishna shit apparently! Because the book is; “Dedicated to Srila Prabhupada and all his sincere followers.” Now, it’s a rare thing when somebody I respect is still involved in any religion. I can count on one hand the number of people I respect who still buy into religion. So, Jai, for the first time in the history of the world, you might can teach me somethin. Cuz I need to know; what’s the fuckin deal? Who is fuckin Srila Prababooey or whoever and what is the deal with this shit? Run it down to me in as much or as little detail as you want. Yes, it’s true, Jai is good for something.... I’m interested in knowing what’s up. Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by jainitai on Jul 13, 2008 22:13:46 GMT -5
How did I miss this thread?! I think it may have been because that "what are you listening to" thread kept showing up on the home page, so I didn't know you had started this thread. I just happened to check that other thread out tonight and saw this.
Anyway, it's hard to discuss religion and faith and philosophy via a message board. There's inevitably always going to be something that's lost in translation. And I really don't know John Joseph's motivations for identifying with Krishna Consciousness, as I've never met him and I didn't come to Krishna Consciousness through the whole hardcore scene.
Being an astute logician and philosopher, I'm sure that you could just as easily search "Srila Prabhupada" or "Hare Krishna" on Wikipedia and find some answers there, but I think what you're really asking is, "Why would someone like John Joseph adhere to such a bizarre faith?" The question could be more greatly generalized as to "Why would anyone follow any religion?" There has to be personal motivation and inspiration, just as in anything we chose to do in life.
Like I said, I can't speak for John, but I can understand his deep commitment to the Krishna Consciousness movement and to Srila Prabhupada, because I have personally studied the Vedic scriptures and applied the principles to my own life. There's something within the Vedic paradigm that you just don't find in other religions. Vedic philosophy or more specifically Krishna Consciousness (also known as Vaishnavism in Hindu theology), deals with bhagavat-dharma or the religion of the soul. It has nothing to do with sectarian concepts or external designations, rather it goes right to the life force, the consciousness that is within all living entities and its dharma or essence/inherent function, which is service (seva). All living entities (most obviously observed in human beings) have a desire to serve, whether it be others or the self (senses). According to the Vedas, all of our problems begin when we use this serving propensity to gratify our selfish desires and not to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Really it's a very deep philosophy/theology and is impossible to explain on a message board. I'd be happy to send you some books to peruse yourself and to get a taste of what Krishna Consciousness is all about. Just PM me your mailing address.
|
|
uglyknuckles
Singing Slasher
Rebel Hitman
"You can't kill what won't die, they try but the strong survive." --Freddy C from Madball
Posts: 993
|
Post by uglyknuckles on Jul 14, 2008 18:38:29 GMT -5
Well,
since you were dealin with family stuff, I went ahead and dived into this book. Now, he gets in to some way out shit when talking about religion and vegetarianism, but that's a minority of the whole book.
I happen to be right now in a chapter about his first years in the "movement". It's called, "Let the Scams Begin." And it's incredible the dirty shit the Krishna gurus did in the 70's and on. He talks about a book I've heard of but never read called Monkey on a Stick about sex abuse and actual murders and shit done by these fuckers. John Joseph claims hundreds of millions of dollars were stolen by various gurus so they could live like emperors while the rank and file ate thrown away food and worked 18 hours days for free. It's a cult. Joseph lays it at the feet of the "gurus" who took over after Srila "Left this world" in 1977.
So, Joseph is still a follower of Krishna values and Srila P. But he doesn't affiliate with any of the gurus who stole and perverted the "absolute truth" of S.P.'s message as espoused by him once he was sent to America to teach all this shit.
Needless to say, I'm laughing my ass off. I have mad respect for JJ. And in this book it's amazing how much shit he lived through. Pure fucking insanity. I recommend the book highly. This motherfucker has been through it! for real. But I'm not feelin the whole Krishna thing.
I'll read the rest of the book and then get back with you. He explicitly names all the gurus who are responsible for the evil shit that went down, etc.
My question for you right now is; is it a common thing -now- for people who were formerly heavy into the whole K.C. movement to remain believers but have separated themselves from the organization and the guru followin b.s.? I mean, you can still be a follower of this without going to the churches and temples and getting brainwashed, used and robbed? Or is it still common for people to be caught up in it all and not experiencing the teachings or whatever independent of an organized Krishna Consciousness Movement?
|
|
|
Post by jainitai on Jul 14, 2008 20:24:05 GMT -5
Well you also have to look at the issue of context here. He's talking about the "old school" days when ISKCON (The International Society for Krishna Consciousness that Srila Prabhupada established when he came to the U.S.) was still in its early years of development. The principles of Krishna Consciousness are not a new fad. The Vedas and Vedic scriptures are thousands of years old (well, that's also a point of faith, like any faith in any religious scriptures), but the problem came when these initial, young, Western devotees misconstrued the principles and practices of the Vedas for their own selfish motivations.
There's no denying that there were some so-called "gurus" that completely abused their power. This is no different than in any other religion where the leaders abuse their power, position and wealth for personal gratification (just think of the priests in the Catholic church). So we shouldn't be shocked that there are people within an organization or a religion that misuse their power and position. This is expected, as it's human nature.
No one in present day ISKCON denies what went down with these so-called "gurus". It was some crazy shit. Pedophilia, drugs, guns and even murder. But all of these "gurus" are either dead or far removed from ISKCON and its current functions and activities. Those people were NOT representing Srila Prabhupada's mission, nor what Krishna Consciousness is all about. But unfortunately it's become a stigma and tarnished the image of Hare Krishna devotees in the public eye, which leads many people to dismiss them as being a cult. It's really sad what these "gurus" did to the movement.
Anyway, to more directly address your questions:
"My question for you right now is; is it a common thing -now- for people who were formerly heavy into the whole K.C. movement to remain believers but have separated themselves from the organization and the guru followin b.s.?"
Following a guru or taking instruction and initiation from a bona-fide guru is still an essential element in Krishna Consciousness (bhakti-yoga). Explaining the whole dynamic of the guru/disciple relationship is difficult to do on a message board. Basically you can think of it like this: since we cannot see or know God directly through our mind and senses, He appears to us through the agency of the bona-fide guru. And a bona-fide guru never thinks them self as being a guru. They feel themselves to be humble instruments in the hands of God and they see themselves as servants of their own guru. In this way we have the concept of the disciplic succession or an unbroken lineage of guru and disciples that goes back to Krishna Himself.
But yes, there are many devotees that are still heavily into Krishna Consciousness but have distanced themselves from ISKCON as an organization. My wife's guru even actually formally distanced himself from ISKCON, because of some leaders mistreating him (to put it simply). There are still power struggles that go on within the ISKCON leadership, but that doesn't mean there are no genuine devotees in ISKCON or bona-fide gurus in ISKCON. You really have to judge the individuals and not the organization as a whole.
"I mean, you can still be a follower of this without going to the churches and temples and getting brainwashed, used and robbed? Or is it still common for people to be caught up in it all and not experiencing the teachings or whatever independent of an organized Krishna Consciousness Movement?"
There are really no limitations on following the path of bhakti-yoga. There's nothing that says you HAVE to do anything. Even in my own, personal example, I rarely attend temple functions, not necessarily because I'm inimical to ISKCON, but mostly just because I'm busy with life. But we have a small altar or sacred space at home to practice our devotional lives. Even with the following of principles like no meat eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex and no gambling, those are not things that you HAVE to give up, but as you have more spiritual realization you begin to see how these things actually have personal benefit and you do them because you realize this and not because someone is telling you to do it.
And just for the record, there's currently no robbing, brainwashing or using going on in ISKCON. Like I said at the beginning of this post, you have to look at the context of things. Those were the very early years where the people that were coming around were very immature hippies, drug users, etc. The ISKCON of today is definitely NOT the ISKCON of the late 60's and 70's. It's not even the ISKCON of the 80's (since that's when a lot of the crazy shit went down, like that stuff in West Virgina, which is chronicled in "Monkey on a Stick").
Anyway, my wife needs to get on the computer. Let me just wrap this up by also saying that I John Joseph moved towards a splinter group of ISKCON known as the ritvik group. The ritvik's (ritvik means a priest that does something on the behalf of someone else) believe that the only true guru is Srila Prabhupada and that all other gurus are only acting as ritviks, initiating disciples on behalf of Prabhupada. In this way they think that all disciples should really be disciples of Srila Prabhupada. It's very complicated and they have their reasoning as to why they think this is what Prabhupada wanted, but it's too lengthy to get into here.
I'd still be willing to send you some books so you can examine them for your self. That's really the only way to find out what it's all about.
|
|
uglyknuckles
Singing Slasher
Rebel Hitman
"You can't kill what won't die, they try but the strong survive." --Freddy C from Madball
Posts: 993
|
Post by uglyknuckles on Jul 16, 2008 18:04:16 GMT -5
Jai, I very much appreciate your offer to send me some literature about Krishna Consciousness. I don't want to seem like I'm blowing that off. But I've had my religious epiphany and am at peace with my place in things. I don't fear death and hell and I don't look forward to heaven. I take responsibility. I'm at the wheel. But I do highly recommend this book. www.punkhouse.orgEvolution of a Cro-Magnon is the best autobiography I've read in years. John Joseph shouldn't have even lived to be 16 years old. This is a guy you can relate to if you've had it rough or ever struggled for anything, regardless of your economic origin. He writes the way he speaks, which is extremely articulate while still getting in an incredible amount of street slang and "motherfuckers". Compared to John, I've had a life of remarkable peace and luxury. This cat was living on his own on the streets of the Lower East Side of Manhattan by the time he was 14, and by the time he turned 17 he'd spent most of the previous two years in jail. This book is for real. Incredible violence, poverty, sexual and mental abuse, incarceration, addiction and redemption. There's enough crime and violence to make a serial killer flick or an entire season of The Sopranos, enough sex and drugs to satisfy Keith Richards, and plenty of hardcore rock and roll. It's as much an autobiography of a place, scene and time as it is of a man. Joseph was there for the early days of punk and hardcore in NYC, he was at the right places and the right time and sometimes at the scene of the crime! He gives a cool rundown on the introduction of alternative religions and spirituality into the music scene from ‘77-‘87 and beyond. The motherfucker is more than a survivor, he's a force of nature. The book is huge, $20 with free shipping and worth every cent. It's true-crime, autobiography, and philosophical treatise. John Joseph is a man with more street cred than a thirty year old pair of steel capped Dr Martens.
|
|
|
Post by jainitai on Jul 16, 2008 21:11:02 GMT -5
Jai, I very much appreciate your offer to send me some literature about Krishna Consciousness. I don't want to seem like I'm blowing that off. But I've had my religious epiphany and am at peace with my place in things. I don't fear death and hell and I don't look forward to heaven. I take responsibility. I'm at the wheel. Oh...I see how it is. That's okay...you'd rather just believe other people's opinions about something rather than investigating it for your self. Yeah, no problem. Whatever. I understand...you're kind of scared you might end up in an orange bed sheet on the street corner with a tambourine and selling roses. Just kidding. But I honestly do find it odd that if you wanted to know about a religion or spiritual path (which obviously you did, as you asked me what it's all about) then why wouldn't you accept or agree to at least read one of the books written by Srila Prabhupada? It's kind of like asking someone, "What does that ice cream taste like?" and then someone tries to explain the flavor to you. But then they realize you'll just have to taste it for your self, because no matter how much they explain it, you'll never get the full experience. So they say, "Here, just take a little taste" and then the person says, "Nah, that's okay. I don't like ice cream anyway!". But that's cool, yo. You're a free man in a free country. Anyway, I know some devotees that might really be into that book, since many I know actually came through the hardcore scene. I might pick it up if it's at the library or something, but I don't think I'd pay to read it, since I'm not really THAT interested in it.
|
|
|
Post by Red Dog on Jul 17, 2008 0:11:01 GMT -5
Alright UK, you've sold me. Next order I make from Amazon (which should be soon), I'm getting this book.
|
|
uglyknuckles
Singing Slasher
Rebel Hitman
"You can't kill what won't die, they try but the strong survive." --Freddy C from Madball
Posts: 993
|
Post by uglyknuckles on Jul 17, 2008 16:11:24 GMT -5
Alright UK, you've sold me. Next order I make from Amazon (which should be soon), I'm getting this book. Dog, if you don't like this motherfucker, I'll buy the sumbitch from you! Money back gaurantee, homes. John Joseph's life story is INSANE. He's done some dirt in his time, too and he doesn't try to hide the fact. But he conquered some furious shit to get where he is today. I just went on punkhouse again and bought the cd of his new band Bloodclot!. I'll bust a review soon. You might think about getting the book directly from punkhouse. They ship fast as hell, got great customer service, plus the money goes directly to JJ 'cuz that's his spot. But in any event, you'll laugh your sick ass off at parts. just like i did. There will be some moments of disgust and sadness, too. plenty of "holy shits!" I know you'll dig it.
|
|
uglyknuckles
Singing Slasher
Rebel Hitman
"You can't kill what won't die, they try but the strong survive." --Freddy C from Madball
Posts: 993
|
Post by uglyknuckles on Jul 17, 2008 17:11:31 GMT -5
Oh...I see how it is. That's okay...you'd rather just believe other people's opinions about something rather than investigating it for your self. ?Who is yo lil' ho ass talkin to? It's been a long road for me and I have lived and read and trained and investigated my ass off! You musta forgot who you were bumpin yo gums at... Oh, you were kidding! lol. ok. Cuz for a minute there I thought you actually forgot the last 6 or 7 years of talking with me and all the philosophy and shit and really did think I was shallow enough to be like that. see below where this post gets serious again. This is the worst analogy ever. I don't wanna taste a goddamn thang. Like I'd eat after you! Well, there's a picture in John’s book of ol' Srila, hangin onto some beads an shit, and he is hands-down the ugliest motherfucker who has ever lived. Not only that, but I swear his ass is still around, because I'm pretty sure I rode in his cab this year in Pittsburgh! I mean, godDAMN !! Motherfucker look like one o' them Orcs from Lord of the Rings! He's preaching celibacy and I can see why! He'd scare all the pussy in a 300 square mile area into hiding! his ass will need to be reincarnated at least 1000 times just to make status as "butt-fugly." I don't know what he was doin with them beads, but he needs to wrap them motherfuckers around his ugly ass grill like a bandage on a mummy! He's got growths on his face that Lemmy from Motorhead wouldn't fuck with. You ever notice how all the pious holy men are as ugly as homemade sin? That's why they need religion! They need god bad as a motherfucker. that way, at least they got a prayer of seein some pussy! sheeeeeeIT! Anyway, on the serious note. Why I asked you about KC but don't want to read about it in depth. 1) what are the chances of me, a natural born carnivore and apex predator like all humans, giving up eating steak and fried chicken to eat some tofu and greens? If you guessed, “None” then you’re a smart motherfucker. 2) What are the chances of me giving up the 3 or 4 times a year that I get to knock back a drink with my homies? 3) I don’t believe in peace. 4) there ain’t a damn thing any religious person or guru can say to defeat the following maxim that I espouse: Either god doesn’t exist, or he isn’t worth worshiping and doesn’t deserve our faith. Take. A. Fucking. Look. Around. Now, counter that shit! I wanted you to break down the general concepts of the belief system because, in all my years of faith, study, reading and eventual conversion to Fox-Hole Atheism, I’ve never investigated any of the religions that came out of India with the exception of Zen Buddhism and certain Esoteric Buddhism relating to martial arts traditions. And I respect John Joseph a whole lot, so I wanted to know a little about it. I’m always curious when somebody who’s been through the wringer still retains religious belief. I retained a lot of the ethics, but none of the belief in a higher power. I can’t feature how somebody can be religious if they’ve ever really taken a look around and thought about it or gone down a path really searching with an open heart for the truth. Now, there are a lot of christians I respect, and jews I respect, and I’m still amazed in the shit they believe -especially christians- but I know about those religions because I was raised in evangelical christianity. So I don’t wonder about them, I just have to accept that someone who is my intellectual equal can, somehow, still believe the shit. Okay, I just walk on. Some other “faiths” are just obviously cooky as fuck, so I’m not wasting my time with them. But sometimes I see a religion that I’d like to know a little something about and I ask somebody who’s my “friend” to throw me a fuckin bone and give me the gist of it. Not a book. Please. If you got a second and it ain’t too much to ask of yer lazy ass. Get it? Got it? Good!
|
|
|
Post by Red Dog on Aug 1, 2008 11:16:46 GMT -5
I got this book today (from Amazon since I placed an order for more stuff...sue me). I'll be checking it out this weekend.
|
|
|
Post by jainitai on Aug 1, 2008 17:48:20 GMT -5
I just NOW saw your last post, UK. That's weird. I guess I missed it again because of that "what are you listening to now" thread. Anyway, I respect and understand where you're coming from. And I guess that's really the only way you can leave it: with mutual respect.
|
|