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Post by jainitai on Mar 28, 2010 7:36:03 GMT -5
Not sure where to put this topic, so feel free to move it RD.
I was just on Ebay yesterday looking up "Tim Vigil". I found something listed by someone here that I won't name, but they'll know who they are. They were selling some pages of the photocopied Faust 14 that Tim made available to us. It got me thinking about the ethics of it.
Is it wrong to be selling something of Tim's to turn a profit? Since those pages are just photocopies, it would be very easy to make an unlimited number of pages for endless distribution and profit on Ebay. Is that fair to Tim?
But then I think, "Well it's not any different than buying Tim's personal artwork or a print of his work and then later selling it for more than you paid for it." Right?
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this person has set up a factory and is cranking out Faust 14 pages to make a killing on Ebay. It appears they're just selling a few pages from what they received from Tim.
But I don't know. How does this topic make all of you feel? When I initially saw the listing I was like, "What the...?!" I guess I just feel like Tim made those exclusively available to us here on the board and if he wanted to mass distribute them he would have offered it on Ebay himself. So in that way it kind of seems low class to turn around and start selling off the pages on Ebay.
And lastly, I mean no disrespect to the person selling them. We've had cordial exchanges in the past and have even done business together. He's a great guy. I just don't understand his reasoning and it's a little weird to see those pages up for sale on Ebay.
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killju
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Posts: 344
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Post by killju on Mar 29, 2010 16:20:52 GMT -5
i thought it was strange as well.
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Post by darkartlover on Apr 1, 2010 14:01:16 GMT -5
i don't see so much a problem of selling something as it being as of yet published....as for making a profit on anything right now...good luck..best i can figure after paying the shipping i lost $700.00 on the 6 pieces i sold on ebay last week.
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killju
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Post by killju on Apr 1, 2010 17:02:07 GMT -5
wow!thats alot of cash...the photocopies are cool ive never heard of an offer like this,but seeing them go out as such made me feel a little like(HEY THAT GUYS TRYING TO GET PAID!)to sell what he bought,but that is the nature of sales.you got something someone wants,i saw a gothic nights print that i loved,but i was to cheap to buy.it would have been nice to have but money is becoming tight!thats about it.thanks guys ju
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Post by jainitai on Apr 1, 2010 23:18:44 GMT -5
Mike, you hit the nail on the head with the point about it not being published yet. The way I see it, imagine you have a few close friends that you want to share some of your artwork with for an upcoming book you're working on. Then imagine one of those friends takes copies of the artwork and sells it to the general public. It wasn't meant for the public; just the few friends that you shared it with. It's kind of like with the film industry when people leak screenplays.
And this person was making profit, because we paid $20 or $25 for all of the pages, but they were only selling 4 pages and the last I had seen the auction it was up around $15. So if you sell 4 pages at $20 you'd be making around $120 by the time you sold the whole book off! That's about a $100 profit. And like I said, since they're photocopies, what's to stop one from just copying and selling more pages? I don't think this person was planning to do that. I'm just saying.
And for the record, Tim wasn't very happy about this either. He mentioned to me that he won't be doing anything like this again, i.e. - making copies of unpublished work available to us. Just takes one person's thoughtless actions to ruin it for everyone else.
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Post by ChaosReaver on Apr 1, 2010 23:46:10 GMT -5
Mike, you hit the nail on the head with the point about it not being published yet. The way I see it, imagine you have a few close friends that you want to share some of your artwork with for an upcoming book you're working on. Then imagine one of those friends takes copies of the artwork and sells it to the general public. It wasn't meant for the public; just the few friends that you shared it with. It's kind of like with the film industry when people leak screenplays. And this person was making profit, because we paid $20 or $25 for all of the pages, but they were only selling 4 pages and the last I had seen the auction it was up around $15. So if you sell 4 pages at $20 you'd be making around $120 by the time you sold the whole book off! That's about a $100 profit. And like I said, since they're photocopies, what's to stop one from just copying and selling more pages? I don't think this person was planning to do that. I'm just saying. And for the record, Tim wasn't very happy about this either. He mentioned to me that he won't be doing anything like this again, i.e. - making copies of unpublished work available to us. Just takes one person's thoughtless actions to ruin it for everyone else. I have to agree with Jai about this. This is also like selling illegal dvds before the movies come out into theaters. Since the book never came out, that's what makes the Faust 14 pages so special. Die-hard fans would pay a lot to get it. Has anyone contacted this guy who sold the pages? At least, tell him that Tim is unhappy with all this? If this guy has a conscious, I hope he stops. Especially since Tim wasn't trying to profit from selling the pages to us. He did this because he wanted to reward the long-time loyal fans.
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Post by jainitai on Apr 2, 2010 8:48:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I've been in contact with the person that sold the pages. The 4 pages that they sold were apparently doubles (guess it could happen). Like I said before, I've done business with this person in the past and I know they're not trying to do something sinister or being blatantly disrespectful. It was an innocent mistake. I told them that they really should have contacted Tim first and asked for his permission to sell the extra pages on Ebay. I guess this person just wasn't seeing the bigger picture.
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Post by ChaosReaver on Apr 2, 2010 10:13:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I've been in contact with the person that sold the pages. The 4 pages that they sold were apparently doubles (guess it could happen). Like I said before, I've done business with this person in the past and I know they're not trying to do something sinister or being blatantly disrespectful. It was an innocent mistake. I told them that they really should have contacted Tim first and asked for his permission to sell the extra pages on Ebay. I guess this person just wasn't seeing the bigger picture. I didn't mean to come out judgmental on someone. Especially, a person I didn't know. But, now I can understand why he sold the pages and it was definitely an innocent mistake. So, the case is closed.
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killju
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Post by killju on Apr 2, 2010 15:16:09 GMT -5
THIS IS TO TIM VIGIL THANKS FOR LETTING US SEE FAUST 14 I WILL NEVER SELL THEM IF I DO U CAN HAVE MY BALLS!LOL anyway thank you.ju
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Post by godless on Apr 3, 2010 3:20:26 GMT -5
I had an identical reaction to the auction as you did Jainitai. I also do not think that DAL's intentions were bad but that he made an error in judgment. I myself could never so much as sell things like personal letters written to you by artists/writers/etc. I recently saw this done on ebay for a response Tim gave to a rock band whom he allowed to use panels from Faust as a CD cover(yes, this band was auctioning the 'Sure go ahead and use the art.' reply to their inquiry...I shit you not.).
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Post by jainitai on Apr 3, 2010 8:32:57 GMT -5
I had an identical reaction to the auction as you did Jainitai. I also do not think that DAL's intentions were bad but that he made an error in judgment. I myself could never so much as sell things like personal letters written to you by artists/writers/etc. I recently saw this done on ebay for a response Tim gave to a rock band whom he allowed to use panels from Faust as a CD cover(yes, this band was auctioning the 'Sure go ahead and use the art.' reply to their inquiry...I shit you not.). Just to clarify: it wasn't DAL that sold the pages. And yeah, I saw that letter on Ebay. I couldn't understand why they were selling it. It's not like you can't just go and see Tim at a show and get his autograph.
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Post by godless on Apr 7, 2010 13:00:29 GMT -5
I had an identical reaction to the auction as you did Jainitai. I also do not think that DAL's intentions were bad but that he made an error in judgment. I myself could never so much as sell things like personal letters written to you by artists/writers/etc. I recently saw this done on ebay for a response Tim gave to a rock band whom he allowed to use panels from Faust as a CD cover(yes, this band was auctioning the 'Sure go ahead and use the art.' reply to their inquiry...I shit you not.). Just to clarify: it wasn't DAL that sold the pages. And yeah, I saw that letter on Ebay. I couldn't understand why they were selling it. It's not like you can't just go and see Tim at a show and get his autograph. Hmmm...well his response above was confusing then. I got the impression he was trying to explain or defend himself against what you were saying above. My apologies DAL.
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Post by darkartlover on Apr 8, 2010 13:28:22 GMT -5
no problem. i did have original art up around the same time which i why i commented on the profit part.... i do feel bad about selling even that but i still have everything tim and joe did for me original ( from start to finnish ) even though i did sell some things that they did work on for me but wasn't for me originally.
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Post by Northman on Apr 21, 2010 12:55:57 GMT -5
So who the hell was it?
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Post by cypressearth07 on May 22, 2010 16:09:51 GMT -5
rather have the real thing, then just a copy of it. but that comes with a price. my bf loves Tim's work. i know he rather have a ink, or pencil piece then just a copy of it.
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